Show Notes and Links:
Should cloud providers OPEN up to fully disclose their backup systems
CNET Article - "Icebergs in the cloud" PDF Link
Cloud is a threat to IT
Natural Selection isn't pleasant for the non-selected.
ServiceNow cloud documentation
Are cloud providers by disclosing their ops, for transparency sake, now losing ground with competitive advantage?
NIST Cloud Standards
Elastic Load Balancing
Are we passed the TECH bubble?
Best Buy lays off 650 Geek Squad Employees
Facebook vs ServiceNow
Microsoft / Yammer vs Facebook / Instagram this is a billion dollar battle to be relevant?
Salesforce, IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, all racing to be social
Perception is a big deal with tech futures, because of
Windows 7 $300.00 Windows 8 40.00 licenses costs are changing so fast.
MOBILE ONLY SOFTWARE
Why HR Still Isn't a Strategic Partner
Friction vs Flow
John Willis, VP enStratus
Cote and John Willis, podcast on ITIL / ITSM with Chris Dancy
You own your OWN availability
Cloud - Do you need to own a data center?
When do standards really work?
Adam Jacobs – Devops - A professional and cultural movement
Devops is a FAD right now.
Damon Edwards, Devop Days
Devops = CAMS > Culture, Automation, Measurement and Sharing
If you can't get the culture right, skip CHEF or PUPPET
Velocity Conference 2012- Facebook Session – Jay Parikh - "How do you get to a billion users!"
Eliyahu Goldratt "Beyond the Goal"
Devops doesn't fit every cultural organization
Who is culture hacking?
John Allspaw from Etsy
Sun Tzu Toyota - You can copy someone’s process, you can't copy someone's culture
Culture is BS.... people don't understand the word.
Culture is a NICE way of saying "I'm afraid of people"
The CULTURE RANT
In reality no one cares about culture, NO ONE.
Tools give us a chance to POINT fingers. Culture failures don't give you a opt out on ego.
If you are KILLING yourself at work, maybe the suicide rate is a cultural indicator at your organization.
No one is exposing the STRENGTHS of cultures.
Big data surfing tied to smiley faces and bug bashing
Hornbill Software HACK day (Innovation Day)
Velocity Conference and Devops Days
There is a TALANET WAR right now.
BE BOLD, LEAVE YOUR JOB IF THE CULTURE DOESNT WORK
How do you lose employees? Why do good employee leave?
Is it EVER OK to fire an employee for making a mistake?
Good ITIL / Bad ITIL
ITIL is about process over people
Devops is about people over process
ITIL = Constraint / Devops = Flow
Continual Service Improvement is NOT a choice; it's a force of nature.
Bank Simple - Banking meets culture
Introverts and the abuse of the corp culture (TED Talk)
Stupid people suck the life out of me
Clouderati are just a bunch of talkers
Facebook data centers
Netflix Culture vs Facebook culture
Ian M. Clayton , Paul Wilkinson are now mainstream
tigers and koala bears
FILDI - F, it, let's do it
Build SLACK into workflow
Native RT vs Retweet, why it's important
A Robot will take your job
ITSM weekly, the podcast for your news, insight analysis and information from the world of IT service management. Your hosts Matthew Hooper, Chris Anthony and Matt Baron. IT Service Management Weekly, the podcast starts now.
Welcome to ITSM weekly. The podcast, episode 92. 9 -2. For the week ending, I don't know, we're not good at week. Guys how you doing?
Good, how you doing Chris?
I'm wearing my V-neck shirt tonight.
Okay. It's nice to see neither of you have melted in the heat.
Now it's absolutely ridiculously hot out there. We have a guest today, John Willis. How do you pronounce it, is it machoglupa like surround sound. Mr. DevOps. So he should joining us soon. Reach out to him. So let's go ahead and start off with some News and a stupid surprise, baboon brass news. So, any excuse.
I got cloud service. just like blowed away. Okay Hoop what do you got for us?
Why NewsGator GIO.
NewsGator for Hooper. Yes, news. News from the CAO's perspective. Amazon homage. I think this is huge news. Cloud is a problem when you don't have contingency. Cloud is difficult to build contingency because you don't own the asset so what to do. So its got people thinking about it you know how can we do a better job and understanding what's going on behind the cloud front.
And it is starting to beg the question, is this time that cloud providers open up and disclose some of their IT systems and how things are put together? Taking a quote from an article on CNet, it says, this strengthens the argument for cloud providers like Amazon to fully disclose their IT systems to either their customers or independent third party for assessment, testing, and inspection.
As Yale academic Brian Ford has argued in his academic paper, "Icebergs in the clouds: the other risks of cloud computing" (and I'll put a link to the pdf in the show notes). This pdf is really good actually. It talks a lot about service warranty. And what we need to do to really evaluate a cloud provider's capabilities in providing us the warranty.
The basic question here is, "is cloud " - I guess we have talked about it because we view it as a threat to IT, but do things like this help us to view More of a partner.
I don't think I've ever seen those as a threat to IT, that would just be my perspective.
And I would say that you did.
To me, it's a, It is a form of outsourcing right, so I mean there are jobs displaced when you buy a Cloud technology. So, yeah I think it's a complete threat to IT. As we understand IT from 2010, so I agree with Matt Lupa.
You know I just see it as part of the evolution of IT, I don't think it's part of a revolution, I don't think that's happening. Come on, Hooper said it was a threat and evolution is a threat, evolution is a threat, it's a threat to people who didn't evolve. Natural selection isn't pleasant for everyone.
Yes, I think I agree I just have a different perspective than maybe the.
No, no you have an evolved perspective You have to stop being so smart. What I found interesting about this, I'm getting phone call during the Podcast. might be John Willis. Give it a shot.
Shall we pick it up? All right, you guys carry on with the news while I take the call.
Whoever it is, let's bring him on the show.
What if it is someone else.
It is kind of interesting. We struggled with this with Service Now. For the first three to five years, they didn't publish anything. In fact, you couldn't even tell the way their data centers were. Or dater centers, if I was saying it with a Boston accent. But now they've got some bigger customers and the customers are starting to demand, where are they, what are we going to do when this goes down?
It's business-critical service. I think, or at least IT anyway. And so people need to have the fail order plan and they need to understand that if this thing's going to fail, what are your backup options? I need to know what's supporting those three nines or four nines, and give us some real some real capability to not fail if half of the country is off.
Part of that though, you're starting to deal with with that level of transparency are they putting themselves at a risk of losing a technical advantage. Definitely. The higher the transparency the easier would be, let's say they chose New York and L.A., then the people in the middle of the country would be going to get posed for bandwidth because you're further distance away, and maybe another provider chooses Minneapolis and the UK.
And so then People in those locations are saying, well that makes sense to do that. It's sort of like you need to look at from both a co-location and a cloud service per se but I think the real point of the story, from Amazon's perspective anyway, is that this needs to be a cloud standard that we agree upon and that people can in this has some cloud standards and I'll put a link in the show notes to that.
But this situation's different, right, because Amazon's had outages before, and this outage was caused by some of the storms that were coming up the east coast back last Friday. So, you know, they have some outages that were weather driven and whatever. Failure's going to happen. But the problem here is that this is a pretty big outage for them.
I mean, it was substantial and lasted hours in duration. It started some time on the 29th of June and carried over to about the first of July for some folks. And a lot of that was, because they didn't understand the relationship between their assets. The root cause, from what they're saying, is it has something to do with what's called the elastic load balance or ELB's.
The way that Amazon's architecture is, you have these things called EC2's which virtual serversRDS , which is your database layer. You can put ELBs in between there so things can fail over and they can scale out and you could be on different virtual platforms at any period of time. There was a bug in their software that didn't allow this to fail over correctly, dependencies weren't mapped appropriately.
Traditionally in ITA, I think we understand this, we understand what fail over testing is all about. We understand about availability and high availability point of failure risk analysis, is something we understand well. So if we're going to give these services over to a cloud provider, is it okay for me to ask the questions?
What is your algorithm for failing over? What is your validation to.
But did we ever ask those questions to the people we hired to manage our data centers when we had them internal?
I think it was more common.
Sometimes they did.
Well, you did. You're exceptional. But again, let's not get too hung up the fact that it's a Cloud outage it's still a human error and that human could have been in our office or some place else.
Well it's easier to write a check.
Is this outage a red herring for not asking for the right types of redundancies, regardless of who you're getting them for.
Well it's like Google says, everything fails at scale. Is it possible to test, like how -
You're a quote a minute today.
You're a quote a minute today. well you know you can't test for every possible scenario right and so this something that been Amazon and reality is... you know have they rallied around it and repaired it, the question I always ask is better than I could have, had it been me. Yeah. Unless I am a significantly large and just drenched in money organization I'm not not going to be able to have the use forces to.
Hm let's think about significantly large, drenched in money, organizations.
The elephant in the room. Facebook had gone down because of it. Netflix did!
And Netflix is most people's Facebook. I thought people losing their mind because they couldn't use the toaster filter for too well I mean I think do you use a Instragram helper.
I have Instragram. do you? Do you use it? i use it to watch my kids. Do you?
Alright I've got another phone call coming in, it might be chance. Keep going with the News.
So I think some of the bigger news reading well lately as watching the tech markets it could be that we are past the market bubble. Tech stocks are not doing so hot, as you Noticed over the past few weeks, it looks like it could be heading to a continued downturn, or an adjustment, how the "money-folks" call it.
I guess it's a wait and see for some of those market trends, but we definitely are on the Downward side of this bubble in my opinion from where we were in the Spring. Best Buy announced today that they're laying off six-hundred and fifty Geek Squad employees. And look at their market presence all together.
They've just got issues all around. But what's interesting to me Is service now just went to our ITO obviously I'm focused because that's what I work with everyday. It's interesting because, number one it wasn't very well pronounced. I worked with a lot of people that work with servers all the time and no one even mentioned it really.
Steven Mann was actually the only person that I caught that was actually paying attention to the financial aspects of service now. And It's interesting read how people view everything past Facebook now, like every body was saying in the post Facebook IPO world how are tech stocks going to do and how aren't they doing and I think that maybe drove some of the downward trend in the financial market was the Facebook IPO thing.
But I don't know, it almost feels like that's going to be our saving grace. That it's going to stop it from getting so big that we all lose our jobs in one fell swoop.
Yeah, but you know what, there's a big difference It's in between service now, and Facebook. And the thing is, Facebook didn't really ever have a solid monitization strategy they simply have momento they were just too big to fail right, where service now is proving themselves to to be a viable entity in the enterprise they continue to sell.
They have a clear and present sales and marketing strategy B.
Right. It's a business.
They brought in a whole
Yeah, they've brought in a whole new team; it was a natural of what you've seen tech companies do. It's the type of progression you look at most - from start-up to mature operation. They've walked the progression.
You know, they've been around for seven, eight years, so this is a completely different circumstance. I think it's doing good. It's still up, right? Thirty or forty percent from there. Yes, but do you think that Facebook is going to save us from another DotCom burst because of this downward trend now?
The tech markets that I'm talking about in particular are your IBMs, your Microsofts, your Oracles, I mean everything's down right now. It's down percentage wise it's anything from four and a half to, you know, twelve percent, I mean, it's pretty significant dips from the highs of four months ago, so, you know those are your kind of latest options look at it as a benchmark right for or more enterprise technology service now coming out at this point is good for them, I think, are different, uh they're and what people who own stocks in those enterprise platforms want to reinvest in something similar to a space that they know.
This is a good place for them to find their money. You know, So I think from a Facebook perspective, overall this probably is a consumer side of tech bubble that will that will continue to reset itself from a market standpoint, but I think that's probably ineffective and not so much the start price of Facebook, I really think it's going the position prices, the Instagram purchases, the Yammer purchases, the Skype purchases that we've been seeing, There was a day when you didn't pay over a hundred million dollars for software companies, and now the price is a billion dollars?
And, I think that's a bit unrealistic, you know, was Instagram really worth a billion dollars? II can't see anybody justifying that that's the case, and when Facebook took the 10% or more tumble, or what is it now twenty-five percent tumble. I think they've lost more.
They've lost value.
They paid 1% of their cap for Instagram. I don't get it.
I get it- they paid one percent of their cap to be relevant. They paid the same amount that Microsoft did for Yammer. We talked about this last time. I don't think anyone realizes how crazy relevance and how expensive it has become.
Yeah. I think Yammer It was a better purchase than Instagram though.
It depends about what they do with the Empire.
I mean someone's saying, are they going to make it Microsoft Sharepoint mobile social platform. You have to step back though and realize that these are completely sell jobs from the lawyers, the brokers, and all the people who really make conditions on these huge transactions. Because if Microsoft didn't buy Yammer, you gonna tell me that they're gonna be more relevant in six months now because they bought Yammer without buying Yammer?
They're not. In a year and a half from now.
Say that one more time?
In six months from now, Microsoft would not be anymore relevant with not any relevant with Yammer then without Yammer. And in a year and a half they could have paid less for Yammer because by then their would have been 15 other Yammer competitors out there. So, the reality is, it wasn't a transaction of necessity, it was a transaction of fear.
Male 1: pressure and timing.
Male 2 :Well, all transactions, are transactions of fear.
Male2: You buy a house because you're afraid your family is gonna think you're not as mature as you said you were now that it has been two years after the marriage. No one actually buys anything out of shire shrewd planning. That's a type of thinking that doesn't exist in humanity any longer. I do think it was a brilliant purchase for the sheer perception of, Hey we care.
I think if it was a me too purchase. Again, we have talked about this on the show a hundred times before, maybe, i feel like we have because I pay attention. But, you know, Oracle pivoted social enterprise, Salesforce pivoted social enterprise. Biggest social software author, IBM. There's not an organization on the planet.
ServiceNow has Live Feed. Everybody is racing towards how do we get people to collaborate? Now that people are just collaborating differently. if you put point is and maybe it's because I'm out taking phone calls trying to get John Willis on the show live. If your point is, did it actually do anything real for them?
You know, perception is a big deal, I mean Microsoft in my opinion has to really look at a scary future of their licensing remuneration, of their original how they license stuff. They just dropped Windows 8 from the $300 I paid for Windows 7, to $40.
Yes, isn't that insane?
So, again, I think if you're in IT, if you're in service management, you should be watching these purchases, you should be watching these decisions, you should be saying to yourself: I am in a position to lead my organization toward better decisions because I understand how the cloud outage affected it.
I understand, from listening to this podcast, types of information I should be bringing to my organization. I understand from watching Microsoft buy these technologies, from watching Facebook buying these technologies, I should be focused on mobile only. go back to the podcast two years ago, mobile only.
Right? Again, but are people doing it? We are in a race against time. And I would say it used to be all about vanity. It was all about saving and looking important. You're now in a race to be relevant so you can feed yourself.
Well you know, this is a continual change of attitude, right? From where we were and IT even five years ago. It goes well to the tweet that I saw from Shane Carlson. Say a guest first saw this too about HR.
It's not just IT that doesn't plan itself not to be a strategic partner with the business. The article was pretty funny, I mean I read it and I said you could completely put HR and just take out HR and put IT here, and I think this a common feeling amongst most IT measures. I'll read from the article for just a real quick second.
It says that every action you take as a, I'll put what it really says here, HR every action you take as an HR leader, ask a simple question, does it cause friction in the business or does it create flow. Friction is anything that makes it more difficult people in critical roles to win with the customer.
Flow on the other hand is doing everything possible to remove barriers to promote better performance. The question applies to virtually any company and any business that will take you farther down the road faster than the hazy, abstract injunction to become a strategic partner. Even in what appeared to In routine HR responsibilities you can inject the business prospectus simply by asking, whether what you are doing is going enhance the flow of the business, or impede it with friction.
why is it so difficult to inject the business prospective because HR leaders we feel ourselves to be near the pimple of the organization the organization reports to us it must meet on to for information, documents, and numbers.
Boy, I thought IT had a problem.
But, I think this is common feeling inside of IT. They want data, they want information, they're going to have to come to us. We're gonna put in command and control to make sure things are protected and things are governed and a lot of the times it's more friction than it is flow, right?
Yeah. Look at any ERP system ever. It's always friction, that ain't flow.
Speaking of friction and flow, what a way to introduce someone.
I'm an idiot, I admit it.
Oh, no, you're DevOps, we have you on because you're agile. Welcome, twenty minutes into the show.
You missed the scumm meeting, I hope you got everything done from yesterday.
Yeah, right. Well, I was in the thing and I thought I was on and I was yelling because I was listening to your conversation about the people yell out. Can I go back on one point that you guys were making about the outage now that I'm here?
Well can we introduce you?
Sure, that'd be good.
Why don't you introduce yourself, because you're a much heralded major player in the world of IT and everything that's happening now. Well, thank you I just went from idiot to like miracle worker, so, my name is John Willis, I'm the VP you have customer service enabling. We have the company called Enstratus.
I've been doing IT for thirty years, I probably more recently have been heavily involved in this DevOps movement really rocked right from the ground floor. I consider myself kind of part of the tribe that promotes DevOps for all the right reasons and that's about it.
We'll talk about all the right reasons in a minute. Welcome. Is this your first live to YouTube hangout? It is, as you can obviously tell, that's right.
So, I I'm a big fan. You and Kote had me on your show about two years ago and this show wouldn't exist without you two. So, in some ways you birthed me, how does that make you feel? That's great, that's great. Actually there's a few out there Bert, there's the chef food fight guys they give me credit for sparking them to start their excellent chef podcast as well.
Yeah, and congratulations on the weight loss, by the way.
Oh, thank you very much, thank you very much.
Talk to us a little about your view on the outage because I think some of it should be good.
The point I want to make is I do wanna talk about data loss but it's all interrelated. Ben Black says, "You own your own availability." And so one of the things that I think that the cloud has pushed on us is that there is some magic secret syrup here, where you don't have to rethink. You know, what the Klout is, it lose the barrier to entry owning a data center.
At the end of the day, you still have a business and you still have a data center. and so it gets tricky at the high end because a lot of things you give up. But, I heard someone in that conversation talking about did we do this before in data centres the good ones did. The good ones had, unfortunately it was a lot more expensive, a lot more complicated but they built high availability DR infrastructures.
Some of them had mirrored hidden data centers. Some of them just brought a bunch of tapes over to another building which never worked.
But at the end of the day end of the day, the misnomer or the fallacy of Cloud is that you don't need that stuff anymore, and again, take Cloud for what it's good at which is a familiar infrastructure, easy to get, you don't have to rack and stack but the people who think they're getting a cloud at a bargain basement price I used to stop thinking abut how to run the business and make your business; you know the good ones I haven't read the Netflix review yet, but you know the past major outages, you know, the good ones know how to go around this and you know because we spent a lot of money on people.
Let's figure out how to get around this.
And I see that was my point to Hooper was it doesn't matter where my servers are, it's the people who I hired.
Yes, questions you ask and you time you really focus on what matters.
But where in the NIST standard does it say that the people you hired this way.
Oh, that's Idol page, you know, not so much; yeah, yeah.
No, that's in the HR article, isn't it?
And that other point about like the I'm not a big I mean I love standards, but when do they really, really, really, really, really work? And I think NIST has set some great foundational stuff, but this idea that we're going to get out of this battle, this thing that's moving so fast and so crazy, that the idea of people are just staying around trying to put Dander's on you know, how many colons should go here.
How many commas after this phrase. The world has to be very adaptive right now you can do more with something like chess.
Did your house tilt in an earth quake John, cause you look crooked.
Oh yeah I am kind of I've never watched it - a lot of live videos.
I've watched John before and he tells us when he thinks, he's really really really left brained. You've got to get the blood flowing. That's right, it's a new exercise technique.
Last week we did a dramatic reading where I read, Did you notice Gross put in dramatic reading music. I listen to the show. Yeah, of course you don't . You don't even run a company, as far as I'm concerned. So I see has become and idiot and brilliant in the same sentence. So we did a dramatic reading of the Wikipedia article DevOps.
So I would like a John dramatic interpretation of DevOps.
Yeah, you know, I think the simplest starting point is, I've always said it was Adam Jacobs. DevOps is a professional and cultural movement, period. But I think David J. Anderson who's one of the KanBan Frontier guys. I read something of his where he talks more about it being a philosophy. And I think when we look back at the old lean stuff, we see that they talk more about it being a philosophy than anything else.
But beyond that and those are cheap definitions but the reason I always like this post to start for them first is it's like anything that has this danger being a fad, which DevOps is definitely a fad right now. And that's a good thing, bad thing.
But you want to always be able to draw back to some kind of a solid ground, you know? Which is, really let's not forget the cultural aspect of DevOps. It has a lot to do with why this movement is so great. Then the vendors try to take over, and you know, that's just a game.
They are. I mean, I've seen vendors with complete marketing programs around 'they enable DevOps'.
Of course they do. Yeah.
You 're going to see expert speakers show up from all these vendors.
I can see then now.
Yeah. They do that with Cloud, too. They did that with Cloud and they're still doing it with Cloud. I tell the story, it's just like the stars. They spend their whole life trying to get on camera and getting pictures taken of them and the minute they become famous they start complaining about everybody taking picture of them.
Well, if you're in a movement and you're pushing really hard for adoption -- you know, Damon Edwards says you can't complain about who adopts you, you know?
That's why I'm all for foster parenting.
Yeah, you are. That's right. So, to me I think that one of the things that's probably not in that Wikipedia article, I haven't looked at in a while but me and Damon Edwards a few years ago started this idea, it was after the first DevOps days in the U.S. They had run a couple in Europe and we kinda helped through Velocity and through Damon and myself and a bunch of other people.
Tried to get the first days out in Mountainview and it was amazing to see like 300 people show up on a dime and all these people be unbelievably passionate about. One of the things I love about DevOps is you can criticize or not, but most people when I explain it to them, you explain it very simply and it will represent complex ideas and nine or ten will get it from the first explanation you know and it was three hundred people that showed up it kind of got on the first explanation.
And after that we did a podcast and we tried to just sift through all the craziness that happened, the the kind of birth of DevOps in our mind and we came out with this acronym called CAMS, culture, automation, measurement and sharing and we just tried to put not to really try to change the world or say hey this is -
I like that. So could you break it down for us, culture, automation -
Yeah, so culture If you don't get this magic that is DevOps, which I'm drinking the Kool-aid obviously, but none of it works.
You are braking few walls in a giant red suit.
That's it, but none of it works unless you know... if you nail the behavior patterns that make it work. So you know and some of it is magic, some it is actually black magic but some of it is just you know, there are people like you look at a guy like John Osvar everywhere he goes. He works at Etsy now, he was at Flicker.
Where he goes, culture follows. And so culture The misnomer about, the things I don't like about DevOps are the people who say, put in this tool in your DevOps. Now anybody who knows what -
That sounds a lot like ITIL.
I've heard this before. Well, it is.
Well, I do actually wanna talk about iTunes and Hold that thought, before you guys explode and blow up here I'm gonna look for you guys, I wanna give you a couple of my theories, and and you guys either break then down or tell me I'm back to being an idiot and throw me off the show.
We don't want to split hairs.
There you go. now that's tooling for you. I know how to work a tool. There you go, it's all about the tools. That's the problem with DevOps is there's alot of this Like we're kind of not worrying about, so anyway, cams, I would say if you can't get the culture right, then don't bother putting anything in shaft or puppet, you know that stuff.
I mean, I know you guys know this, but, unfortunately, right now in the Devops movement we are very tools-heavy on the conversation. In fact ways it's a fear of mine that DevOps might just become another fad. You know, where our correct gravity is, way too much towards the tools. The companies that have been successful, the poster child's for DevOp commerce will tell you first.
it was all about their culture.
You know it's all fun and games until you see a headline that reads: DevOps as a service.
Right, there you go right? And you know it's at Velocity, I was at Velocity and one of the keynotes was done by Facebook. You can hate Facebook or love Facebook it doesn't matter to me but Facebook's presentation was... the title of the presentation was a question. How do you get to a billion users?
And the whole presentation was about their culture and how they and focus on a culture, how they train managers. You know, it's every part of the DNA. And you know what, the Twit stream, was extremely negative. about their presentation, like as if it was one big old job posting or why didn't you talk about the cool technology?
And this is velocity, where are you guys supposed to get it? Web operations. Velocity's twitter stream was blowing up, the fact that Facebook came to talk about it, but again if you've got a presentation like the one you're describing. You've got a bunch of people who supposedly espouse cultural change then being negative about it.
Did you every really understand the word culture to begin with. I think i've become a big fan of Elliot Goldratt, the original Gold. Yeah we had him on last week. Oh there you go yeah well that's pretty magical cause he's been dead for about a year I think. That's why I said nobody. You guys are awesome man.
I try Hey when I die can you bring me back John?
Hold hands, we'll light some candles.
We'll do the John Willis, two puck for Yeah. I think I'll be really smart once I'm fed. I think I'll come up with then for sure.
You want to stick to the point though? You said culture 'cause the reality is that DevOps every cultural organization. I don't want it.
Yeah and isn't that why DevOps be successful because out of the gate you're saying this isn't going to work for everybody, so we're going to make it a little bit more prescriptive for the people who are, right? Yeah, I And somebody said to me the other day, and I want to fight this from my core, but you can't ever work unless you it needs for different leadership.
And unfortunately, you know, there's just a lot of bad leadership out there. And I gotta believe there are half There are small examples of hacks that work. But you're right, I mean the problem with - I did this gig with a large telco about a year ago and there was a DevOps workshop and their culture is so static.
They got ELA's with large vendors that you have to get fourth level approval to get any other product that is a part of the single vent to ELA, right?
John, who are you watching that you think is really a espousing, if I can just coin a term that probably has been used. Who's culture hacking? It's actually not enough people. There are people that are very focused on the culture of their business, but there aren't a lot like if you look at somebody like John Allspaw from Etsy.
He's a poster child for doing things right. don't show up at presentations and what not, but the truth is lot of people don't--just like the velocity crowd--they don't want to hear the soft stuff. They want to hear, because Etsy is also doing phenomenal stuff with tools.
And the noise level, even though, again, I'm not accusing them of this, but the noise level of what you'll hear at Etsy is more about tools. And here's the point I want to make about Eliyahu Goldratt. Eliyahu Goldratt has a book called "Beyond the Goal" and he talks about why MRP failed, why ERP failed, why ecommerce failed, and what happens is, the early adapters -
That sounds like a thrilling book.
Yeah, well it's "Beyond the Goal", but he ties it to the theory of constraints. But more importantly, he says that the early companies get involved in this stuff for reasons pretty much not seen by all the people who copied it.
Right, and what you wind it up seeing and I'm watching this in DevOps now, you're looking at the earlier companies that got it all right on their culture. And then people are coupling basically their tool sets. And I think, there's a great quote from the father of Toyota production systems, Ohno Tiachi he says that, you know they asked him, "Aren't you afraid of bringing in American companies and looking at your process and all that?" And he said, "You know what they can copy our process but they can't copy our culture." And I think my fear is that DevOps, we're not focusing on enough on the culture hacking.
And I try to because as more and more people move away from Why don't you start tweeting, everything would just a pound sign culture hack.
Okay that sounds cool.
Dex, you know, one IT fails is great but let's focus on a culture hack, because I've got to be honest with you John, I've only been on this show, I was on a show with you and Kote once this trippy thing for three years now with these two clowns. Which he threw under the bus when he was on your show, John.
I remember the show. I am so sick it was a damn good show, I am so sick and tired of people saying culture! culture! culture! to me it's a red state/blue state Red herring, for I don't understand. I can't even swear, because we are live. But I don't understand crap, right? So I am going to use, the word culture is more buzzy.
in fatish then DevOps Culture to me is a nice way of saying I'm afraid of people, and I won't want to get over being afraid of people. And be honest and open with where I am in not only my own development, but the development of the organization, the development of my industry and the development of the humans and touch everyday.
But you can't. Because you're afraid if you actually were out there and you say "we suck at this", someones gonna step on you and you're gonna lose your job, and you've got a family to So I think, if Culture & DevOps and corporate hacking want to get real and get fierce, we need to be ready to say, "If you stand up, we'll help you get another job".
Because hacking means disruption.
I agree. I totally, and you know, I hadn't even thought of this, it's funny but there's this guy Spike Morelli and he's kind of big in DevOps in Europe. Before we did the open spaces at the DevOps days and he wanted to prove a point I actually disagreed with him and he proved me wrong. He said that we should stop using, you know, C and cams because nobody cares about the culture, and I'm like, naw, that's not true Spike.
And he said, watch this. So he proposed an open spaces on culture and out of, for the two days there were probably 50 sessions proposed and probably 47 of them were tools days, 3 of them were culture. And in fact, He said that there was a big DevOps presentation.
I think this is directly, that you can, it's easy. Most of these people are men, and men are obsessed with tools. I mean let's just look at this at a biological level.
But again, if you go back and you start piercing, you look at these companies that are successful They get it, and everybody else is trying to copy the wrong things.
What my experience has been is that people with tools for IT folks. It's very easy. Because if it fails, you work within the constraints of the tool. It's the vendor's fault. But if it's culture, the only way that we know how to change culture in IT is to change policy.
That is not how you change culture. That's right. You can look at some of the I could show you a hundred different presentations from the last 30 ITSM conferences I've been at, and I can point to where it says, policy, procedure the process, work instructions, this is how we change our culture and every time I go, "Oh my god that's completely not how you change your culture."
Well, you know how that works. That works at FoxCon. And you know what the FoxCon culture does to people? It kills them. They kill themselves.
Yeah, it works in Auschwitz.
Right? If you're killing yourself at work, if you're jumping out of those because you've got so much process to put together for the next iPad, maybe the suicide rate is a cultural indicator at this company. Yeah, I mean if you look at the places that are getting it right, and again, Facebook says it right out blatant: "There's no other way to get to a billion users than managing culture." They just can't do it.
I mean, that was their, you know, their presentation and I spoke to the guy that runs operations late at the bar. And he was saying like, "We got some pushback on our presentation." You've got to be kidding me? It was a beautiful story. So, the problem is, the guys that, back to your original question, Chris, like how do you do it, who are talking about it.
There's nobody exposing the strength of it. If you look at, like, what the Facebook has done, or you look at what Etsy is doing, there's a handful of really interesting companies that are building a lot of types of things in their company, and I think it starts with people having fun, having smiles on their face.
There's a guy, there's a guy that did this thing where every day he made all the people, and this may sound silly but wait until you listen to the end of it. At the end of the day he made everybody put, he called it the smiley board face. At the end of the day he made everybody write one of three faces: a smiley face, a blase face, or an angry face.
And at the end of every sprint they actually brought it up in the retrospective and tried to correlate some of the bugs. There are companies that run hack days right, this is famous at places like Facebook, where they build into the time, this idea that, some companies as aggressive as every Friday One of our - we have a show in Europe and a show in Australia - but one of the podcast members over in Europe As Patrick Boulder from Hornville.
Do you know what they did the other day? You would love this. So, they decided to have an innovation day, kind of like you'
But they broadcast it on all the Social channels so their customers could chime in. Yeah. Not only had an innovation day internally, they made it exposed. So, go to their Google page. I thought to myself that's pretty dangerous.
It's transparent, it speaks for the culture.
I don't know.
There was a company One of the companies I was talking to over the last week, you know last week was pretty much the Mecca for guys that are dev ops. You've got Velocity, and then You have DevOps days for all the people from Logic Motors.
One guy was saying that they do their stand-ups, they invite their customers to the stand-ups. That do about being bold. But the point I wanted to make about the having fun is I mean one of the mantras now in DevOps community is if you don't work for a company where you're not having fun and you're not learning stuff, you're not doing something?
I don't know if anybody's aware of this, there's like a war for resources right now.
Right. Yeah. I mean a war.
That 's a lot of talent. There's an all out war for talent.
And I think that's where people need to be a little bit more brave about being bold at where they work. I'm constantly reminded about allocating my time and fitting into this mold, but I will constantly do what I need to do to have fun.
Yeah . So if you're part of that pool which most people who would listen to this show or listen to anything I would have to say would be part of that pool. If you're not having fun, you know, and management. That's another thing why I think in someways this has to succeed because people will lose there employees because they're not doing new technologies and fun stuff.
They'll also lose places when they go and hear the attitude of some of these people that are running what I call a DevOps shop, but the model of a DevOps environment. Wow, that sounds like a great place to work.
I had this thing with John Aspaugh, this was a great session that we had. Basically, it was an open space session, and it says "Is it ever okay to fire an employee for making a mistake?". And it was a heavy DevOps crowd, so the answer basically across the board, there was maybe one or two people who basically said, it's a horrible say blah blah blah blah blah if it's a banker.
If no ones dead there's no mistake that horrible.
So then I ask the question. And the obvious reason for not doing that is you don't want to set a tone of the culture. Where you don't want your people to experiment and try things and be bold. The first time someone tries. You tell your boys, "Be Bold." Be bold, be bold. Then you try something and you're fired.
So then I asked the question, what about the second time they make the same mistake? Do you fire him then? No. And the answer was no. Now I asked, okay, what about the third time for the same mistake? And his answer was no And I was like, okay, gotta put the T time, C sign up, John, You know, we're.
But there's the thing, we kinda ended the session with this, agree to disagree which is weird, because I never disagree with this guy. You know what I mean? Almost everything he talks about is.
So is this relief that you just ever fire somebody that they just continually make the same mistake over and over again.
Well, here's the point. In the hallway, I went up to him, and I'm like, "John, this is bugging the hell out of me." And that point, I had half the room on my side, right, and not that I was trying to win an argument, but at one point I said, "Am I the only one -
When you're keeping track of the room, you're trying to win an argument.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Okay, so, but anyway so I won half the room.
Just take it from someone who constantly tries to win arguments.
Okay fair enough. Fair enough but so then I grabbed him in the hallway and then he gave me the example, and this is how core these guys think in culture. He said, "Here's the thing I was trying to explain and we really couldn't get it." You know how in open spaces, everybody's kind of interrupting, and that's just the nature of the beast.
But he said, "Here's the thing. In my world, the way this works is somebody makes a mistake, they go out and they figure out what the mistake was. In a retrospective, they go ahead, and they basically explain their mistake to the whole team. And then the team decides how to fix it." And then, if it happens again, so what his point was then they go through that same process and the team decides.
So the team says, "Okay. The answer is we didn't do this right so we need to do this and this." And then it turns out the next time that outside. So even when you get to third time, his point was, it's always the team's responsibility.
Now, I don't know how far you can take that, but that is a protection mechanism of culture over anything else. Right?
There is a hyper protection measure over culture, over anything else.
Right. Because you know in your success that that is the culture that protecting this behavior pattern, or the culture of being bold and be brave will be protected almost any, in almost any scenario.
Well, I have a lot of people who question my motives behind a lot of the things that I do. I think Hooper and Beran know me better than anyone on even though they don't spend a lot of time with me. But the culture you're describing there is very similar to what I think we all do, right? So I work inside with my team at my company.then work within side my company but I focused a lot of my time focusing on my net work.
Alright. So I work for more for than just my current company, I work for my net work. I think to protect that culture that you're talking about it goes back to this idea of king making. I have to always enable everyone around me, no matter how many mistakes I made to be bigger and better than themselves.
'Cause ultimately, I can't defend myself. But the people around me can.
Right? So, if I actually am altruistic enough to leverage the people I trust with my reputation. I never have to worry about making a mistake again.
It's all about growing and learning. And if people on your team are growing and learning through mistakes, then you're growing and learning. That's the definition of culture.
Yeah. You're one big organism.
Look back to tribes.
Speaking of one big, unnatural organism. Hold on tribe-head. We gotta get to his comments on ITIL.
Yeah, there we go. Stevie Chambers just having a melt down.
All right. We're a live show, we try to watch it all, we've got boards over so when you have got time every body serious with you they calm down but so here let me say this for but let me get both of these out because this first one might you know then i will get caught up on that because i want to say this good message bad message ITIL.
Nothing really bad. All right, so I want to say I'm both, and then let's discuss it, if that's fair. So the thing I always say I think that. And I've got some ITIL tops. Not as recent, but back in the day. Back in the early days, you know, I worked for problem management. vendor, problem change. I worked a lot with IBM, when they were originally pushing, back when they actually used have vendors certified, which is kind of silly in the space a little bit.
So what I say in the DevOps thing, I think is that ITIL is about putting process over people and DevOps is basically about putting people over a process. So when you hit a fork in the road at DevOps, it's always gonna be kind of the people or the culture of the things that work. And the beauty of ITIL was, in my opinion, was that there was a world that had no clue of what it was doing.
And then we could argue whether they still do our not, but what ITIL brought to this world was, not perfection, but at least a template for the way that things could be done. But that's the negative point, if that's negative. The positive point is that I personally believe, and I think Ben Rockwood, if you don't follow him, is a firm believer of this.
I think that there is a world where ITIL and DevOps will work beautiful. and it's kind of like again if you guys don't follow TOC but you know there's examples of theory.
I think Hooper does TOC stuff.
I taught TOC Troy Dumoulin.
There's a good book, it's called Velocity. It's combining Lean Six Sigma and theory of constraints. And the story is basically companies been running a theory constraints and TOC for years. I mean Lean Six Sigma guys come in and rake everything up, smack everything around and the whole thing turns into a mess and the end story is that what they should have done is still filed to your constraint and apply Lean Six Sigma on top of the bottlenecks and, you know, and then focused in on bottlenecks and then went ahead and then applied the institute.
And so I think what we're going to find is this, you're going to be a really nice marriage if we figure out that story. But how to apply, we already see examples of it in some ways. But I think thatare correct. The question is going to be figuring out how do they both live, where they're kind of, by my definition, in conflict.
Well, I think I want Hooper to answer that 'cause he teaches and he's actually gonna start up and I think that would be very interesting. Beran definitely. But they're in conflict, I believe. Because one begot the other. You couldn't have people over process if you didn't have something that was process over people.
To me it's the same thing as just what we talked about from that HR article, right? ITIL to me is about constraint. DevOps to me is about flow. Right. So ITIL is about protection and about preservation, and where DevOps is about action and innovation. Right. So they're coming about it from a different outcome.
And that's what I said earlier I think culturally recognizing that DevOps is not for everybody. Listen, do I want DevOps for my bank? Do I want DevOps for the airplane shop for programmers? I don't know that I do. But do I want it for my startup? Absolutely. Do I want it for my social media company and do I want it for my consumer software?
Absolutely. I think it just comes down to certain aspects of how fast you want to move, and what levels of risk, and what kind of culture you are building.
Do you see first the whole idea of continuous service improving 'cause you can't focus on a constraint and fix it without another one arising. So again, I think if we just, I mean John raised a very straightforward question. How do they exist? What does it look like together in the future? I truly believe that that's, you know, trying to figure out what that looks like it probably is a nice way to spend time that I don't have, when I could just say that they're going to exist, because they can't exist without each other now.
You can't have those three people from Crypton who got banished by Jor-El's father there. The big, tall, goofy guy would have been a bad movie. on his own. The Chick with The Bad Attitude would have been a horrific movie on her own, and Zod by himself is just stupid. Right? So what does that movie look like with them all three together?
I think building toward a future where they just coexist, not trying to figure out what it looks like or who controls it. I mean worrying about what things are, to me, is almost as bad as worrying about what tools make them happen. We almost need a new movement where it's the theory of acceptance.
I'm breathing, and everything will be okay. Well that's the thing, again going back to being a Goldratt nut right now is that all his discussions are about these conflicts that get figured out. You know, there's, you know he talks a lot about They don't have a choice, continual service improvement is not choice. It's a force of nature.
That's right. That's right. Now one thing I did want to say is that, I do think, I honestly, I'm so in the Kool-Aid that I do think that fighter pilots and planes and banks and all that. I think that we're gonna find is that when we get people to work in a culture that we're going to find that we make less mistakes.
We're going to find that we get more productivity. Personally I'm not rejecting your opinion. But I don't personally accept that. I'm not saying we've figured it out, anywhere as near. But if we can figure it out, and learn how to transform what these companies like Etsy and Facebook are doing to banks that I think we will find higher productivity and quality.
I completely I think I agree with you to meet transforming banks to act and Hooper's back to the points about banks and aeroplanes and you want them to have that maturity. You want them to focus on these types of decision making. You don't want them to focus on being innovative.
Well, I want them to focus on risk and I want them to focus on constraint. You know, I want the productivity levels high.
And to me, I was listening to him say, John, and I was thinking to myself, "That's interesting. Well, what happens if I'd rather fly on a less safe plane that's more exciting, than on a really terribly boring plane that's slower."
Which it would be?
What happens if I don't value my current state and I've traded all of my worldly possessions into a way of living and sustaining myself that I really don't care if the bank Well on a more dangerous airplane, maybe you actually get into outer space on.
Well, but again, I don't even, I mean, there are, like, a good example is this Bank Simple, right? Which is out in Portland right now. As we're waiting, we talked about that on the podcast a few months ago.
That thing is radically different.
Right, but I'm not even saying that. I'm just saying, I'm not a scientist. I'm just saying, I bet you we will find out that we will get better quality, better control, and better productivity by allowing people to do more freedom to work in environments where they're not interrupted. To work in environments where they're allowed to actually explore their ideas and so in that, and again, I'm not saying and we've got that nutted in DevOps by any means.
I'm just saying if we can figure out the patterns that induce that.
I think we have figured out the patterns. Again, you know, we like to forget the history very quickly. But there's an interesting TED talk on introverts right now that people told me about over the last few months. And the idea is over the last hundred years, that we've gone from an agricultural society into an industrial society.
We force people into cities, which then force people into offices, and now we're forcing people into the open offices. Where we've taken at least 40% of the culture who are natural introverts and made them work in this groupthink, right? Right. And they're not used to functioning like that. Most innovation comes from solitary work.
There's a reason I prefer to work at home. It's not 'cause I can't get anything done at work. I can't. We all know that I can't get anything done at work. But, I am affected by people's physical energy of stupidity. I can't be around other people emanating stupidity, it literally sucks the life out of me.
That's why he dreams up the contest. That's why he has a Ph.D. cleaning his house. She's actually a masters in Physiology but she cleans his house just your energy your vibe of the smartness.
And I hate the fact my house cleaner's from behind me while we're doing this. But John, I mean, to your point, how do we get those back? How do we get these things back? We need to respect the fact that some people. There's a doctor right there. need not to be working like we're working.
You know some people, introverts, we don't treat very well anymore and you know this Ted Talk made a brilliant point that, just because you're the most charismatic person, you've got everyone's attention, doesn't mean you're probably the brightest.
Yeah, no, that's great. I mean I totally see what you're saying. I don't know how to put that in my brain now.
I'm sorry. I'm around smart people now. So you're elevating me. I'm got some of your energy.
Well, the conversation is awesome, so that's, but what I, now I'm gonna like when do you write me back? I'm starting to worry about when you're going to kick me off the show now. So, having so much fun. So, no, the thing about Insular it's interesting because I mean there's a certain point I need to look at a tad 'cause there's a certain point you're right.
We've got a lot of talkers. You know, I love my Clouterati, but they are some bunch of talkers, right? You know, I mean there's some of them that are dear friends of mine But I saw somewhere the other day where somebody asked a question that was just a fundamental thing you would know if you'd ever used Amazon.
It was one of the Clouderattis that didn't know it. And so that is a fear of ours, becoming such social nuts that like the real smart people the people actually like me really that can talk a good game.
But we need the people like you, who can talk a good game, because the people who actually know the game are too busy focusing on their body, all right? We need, you know, I don't know. You would think I would know, but I think Hooper is kind of a smart introvert who just happens to dance on the I want to get wild extrovert side.
Beran, obviously extroverted, doesn't know a grass skirt from high heels. Wouldn 't take him to a dance, but gosh he's fun to hang out and cheat on my wife with. He's the perfect mistress. When it comes right When it comes right down to it, you know, again we need to be respectful then wreck this whole culture BS that.
It's not BS but we need just to be respectful that certain things will work themselves out. We've made drastically horrific mistakes in managing people and how we put them together. And oh, we'll remove the cubes and that will fix all the problems. Well actually no, it made 40% of the people more uncomfortable, and they now can't function.
Right? So you know, we could, we could do this for another two hours. It's been amazing, I'd love to have you back on. If you'd be willing. Probably one of the more probably shows.
Yeah, I know. I can talk about this. I've been trying to figure out. Chris, I do think, I You know, I know you don't like this wag kinda title but I think it is culture over everything else and the companies that I'm watching become nominally successful for starting this set. I think the plumbing.
And what I'm hoping is people don't miss the fundamentals of their plumbing. We can make fun of Facebook all day long, but the way they're building data centers now, and the way their people are, you know they built a data center in 12 months, and then they turn around almost double in size, one in ten months you know and they're all appointed at this presentation was.
This is not a fool's problem. This is building a culture where people can move fast, adapt, learn how to work with people. I mean Netflix is a little more militant about their culture, but at least they talk about it up front. They say, "If you're not this kind of person and you're not gonna adapt this, this, and this "Do not come work here." And by the way, if you do and you think you're that kind of person you're not, we are probably going to fire you.
And I'm not crazy about that, but it works for them. Because, what they wind up having is people that people that stay there. People just really love this, you know, competitive, being the best of the best. So let's end today's show with each of you give me a cultural hack. So give me a line or two.
Wait. Can we ask John where he got that awesome Carlos Santana picture? No. Stevie Ray Vaughn, dude. Aw, my man! Stevie Ray Vaughn yeah. Have you guys ever seen John play? No I never see him play. But if he sounds like SRV, I'm tuning in. I'm the only person alive today that pays attention. Guys, we had this jam at Dev Ops Days.
I mean, like if we could do one of your service conferences. We can't have Jan at a service management conference. Oh come on, now. Oh please, these people are too busy looking up things in books. Well it's a lot of recipe books in between songs. It took 12 years to get Ian Clayton to be normal, it took him 10 years to get Paul Wilkinson to be acceptable.
Oh. It'll take us. I mean, we are so far, it's just ridiculous. I mean, I follow Stevie Chambers. One, because he's an absolute nut, he is absolutely psychotic. I'm convinced of it. Two, Stevie Chambers did something really brave two years ago. He wrote a blog post and his company came after him, wanting to kill him, fire him and everything else.
It was basically come across that line. And I thought at that point regardless of what I think about Stevie Chambers' opinion I need to support the people who are stand up and lay their job on the line to say something really ugly, right?
No, it's fine.
So, that's my culture hack for the day. If you've got it in you, if you can line up three or four jobs for next week, do something radical at work to push someone else forward. Not some process, not some tool, not some project. Find someone who you think has it in them, lay your job on the line and push them forward.forge , a culture act.
Who? Yeah, Dave Ramsey, a motivational speaker, a great leadership company, in his book leadership. He talks about two types of people: Tigers and Koala bears. He says tigers are ones who, they live without fear. They don't worry about their job they belief so much on themselves that they will figure in out right they walk the line all the time they will take the risk who look very cute and cuddly, but actually can kill a human instantly.
And people don't realize that about koalas, right? So koalas, they might be quiet, they might be reserved, but yet they're powerful and they're usually doped up. How do you say that. But the thing with it is, koalas, what they gravitate toward and what they The excel app is making tiger shine. They are excellent support, like having an administrative, I had an administrative assistant that is vigilant.a koala and I'm more of ice consumers, more the tiger, I take risks.
I would not have been successful.
I think you're more of a cougar than being a trade show host.
Yeah. Oh, whatever.
All right. Beran, culture hacks.
I tweeted it this week. If you need a tool for something and you've got the ability to use it, just use it we needed a defect tracking tool at our work recently, and we didn't have one so I built one and just started you sing it and sent it to the senior leadership and says, "Look, this is what I'm doing.
I think that's a good way to push innovation." Yes and I know I am talking about tools but you can apply that level. So if you think that something is right, and it's working for you, just do it. I think that's one of the best. And what is the, say Frank say? FILDI? F it, let's do it.
Yeah, you're my Koala bear.
So, I like calling that the do now ask forgiveness later.
That's key. There are certain things that you just have to.
Perhaps, John WIllis.
I think that the easy ones and then there's my wish list ones. And the easy ones are the ones who are, basically, building slack into the work environment. Which is counter intuitave to most environments. If anything we learn from workflow and all that, that creating slack. Kanban happens to be a good example of a tool, one of many but, that can force slack in the workplace.
I think it all boils down to things like hack days and places where you can find innovation through the people's ability to innovate by giving them slack time, and not looking, you know, using kind of efficiency syndromes. On the long-term horizon, after this last week's velocity, and you know, having all these discussions about culture.
You know, I want to think more about what are the things that can be measured you know, and now I get into freak science stuff. But other things that we can measure, the soft things we don't even try. We measure everything, but we don't measure that affects our behavior
of , which is